Cole and Cole are here to talk Cole and Co. That is Ashley Cole and Joe Cole, former team-mates for Chelsea and England and old friends turned podcast partners, and we are discussing the core group of Cole Palmer, Reece James, Moises Caicedo and more with whom Xabi Alonso will work.
Whether Alonso will also have Enzo Fernandez and Marc Cucurella beyond this summer remains to be seen. One is admired by Real Madrid, the other by Atletico Madrid and Barcelona. They are now away with their respective countries at the World Cup, Fernandez with Argentina and Cucurella with Spain, each aware that their club futures are uncertain.
Ashley and Joe have been here, too. Immediately after the 2006 World Cup, Ashley left Arsenal for Chelsea. After the 2010 edition, Joe swapped Chelsea for Liverpool. So, is it a distraction?
‘You have to disconnect,’ Ashley says. ‘If you go into a tournament thinking of club matters, that is going to cloud your performance. I got on with it. The only way to get a move, or stay at your club, or shut people up, is to perform. Enzo will have that same mindset. I’ve had the privilege to work with him. He’s got a good head on his shoulders.’
Ashley was an assistant to Frank Lampard at Chelsea towards the end of 2022-23 when he worked with Fernandez and Cucurella. He sees both as top-level players today, and feels his former club should want to keep those, not sell.
Joe adds: ‘You wouldn’t be human if it wasn’t on your mind, but you have to be a professional footballer, and the World Cup is so encompassing, so exciting, it does take all your attention.
Ashley Cole and Joe Cole played together for England as well as Chelsea
‘There is something in your mind, the future of those players will be running around in their heads, but professional footballers get on with it. They are both playing in teams with chances of winning the World Cup. They aren’t there to make up the numbers, either of them.
‘If I’m Xabi Alonso, I want to keep both of them. I’d rather sell four or five other players to get that money in. But that’s if you’re using a model where you’re trying to win trophies. You build around players, like what Mikel Arteta has done at Arsenal, like what Jurgen Klopp did at Liverpool, like what Pep Guardiola did at Manchester City. Do they have to sell them or not?’
Joe is slightly sceptical of Alonso being handed the title of ‘manager’ rather than ‘head coach’ by Chelsea. ‘As long as it’s not a PR move,’ he continues. ‘I’m really happy with everything the club have been saying. But I’m also aware of how businesses work. When Xabi Alonso walks through the door at Cobham, and there’s the first incident where he needs something which is against what the club need, then we’ll see if he’s a manager or a head coach. I’m happy it’s been said. Let’s see it in action.’
Chelsea have several players who, according to club sources, are ‘untouchable’. Palmer is one, Joao Pedro another. Even 20-year-old academy graduate Josh Acheampong is among them, per insiders.
However, Joe counters: ‘Because so much money has been wasted at Chelsea, no player is untouchable, every player has a price, because it’s run as a business. Under Roman Abramovich, the club was run to win trophies first, make money second. Now, the club is run to make money first, win trophies second. That’s the truth. You can do both, but you’ve got to be very, very, very good. It’s important to be honest in this current climate. Chelsea fans aren’t silly. They know what’s going on. Let Xabi Alonso do his work, and we move.’
Cucurella initially struggled upon arriving at Chelsea from Brighton, but Ashley considers him crucial to the club now, and like Joe, he would not sell.
‘I came from Arsenal to Chelsea and I didn’t perform straightaway,’ Ashley says. ‘There was pressure and expectation. Now, Cucurella is someone you should keep. He’s a top performer. I’m not in the dressing room. I don’t know the noise. But if the club want to go forward, you have to keep your top players.
‘(Jorrel) Hato has performed well when he’s had the opportunity. But why not keep a top competitive squad to compete? You’re going to be constantly chasing the next one. You sell Cucurella, Hato plays, but then you need a solution as a back-up to him, so who will that be?’
The pair were also key components of a successful Chelsea team that included Frank Lampard
Ashley and Joe are used to chewing the fat like this. They co-host a podcast together called ‘Could It Be Magic?’ and a spin-off series named ‘Could It Be Coming Home?’ will also be hosted by Joe in New York, sponsored by Carling. They have a laugh together, clearly.
Ashley: ‘Working with Joe – a close friend all throughout my career, played together on the left side, knew him as a young kid, loved his personality – it was a no-brainer.’ Joe: ‘We’ve always got on. After being a footballer, it’s the second-best job in the world, doing this in the media.’
There is plenty to discuss on the pod, including Jose Mourinho. Ashley and Joe’s former manager at Chelsea is now in the news, taking over at Real Madrid again.
Mourinho should be able to handle the madness of Madrid as a master manipulator of the media, with Ashley recalling how he would even tell Chelsea’s players what he was going to do in that day’s press conference to take the pressure away from them.
‘In team meetings, he would literally say, “Right, today, in the press, I’m going to go at the referee”, or “I’m going to go at their manager”,’ Ashley says. ‘It was, “I’m going to take it away from you guys’. He was very meticulous. He’s determined, organised, diligent.’
Ashley mentions Mourinho’s ‘tough love’ approach to management, which was certainly the case for Joe. Mourinho even once said of Joe after a 2-0 win over Birmingham in December 2005 in which he suspected some showboating: ‘I’ve told him one more match like that and he’s out. He has to play for the team and not for the public and himself.’ When Mourinho infamously listed his nine ‘untouchables’ at Chelsea in December 2006, he name-checked one Cole, but not the other, which prompts a laugh out of Ashley.
‘You’re only untouchable until you’re not, if that makes sense,’ Ashley says. ‘With that label, you still have to keep the standards high, perform and train at an elite level and have that mindset. Jose said I was an untouchable. Fast forward when he came back, I wasn’t! That’s football.’
Joe senses his old boss only ever wanted to extract the best out of him, and he believes Mourinho and Madrid are a match made in heaven, saying specifically on Kylian Mbappe: ‘Jose doesn’t mess about.
‘There will be plain conversations. I would imagine he’ll go, “Listen, do you want to be remembered as a great player who never won the Champions League and left PSG then they won it twice? Or do you want to come with us and build this team and become the leader we all know you are?” He’ll put it right on Kylian Mbappe.
‘Because if he’s not the best player in the world, he’s in the top three, you can’t argue that. But you have to play the team, and you have to run. It’s a team game, and you have to be a leader in that team, and build that relationship with Vinicius (Junior) and Rodrygo and (Jude) Bellingham. They need to rebuild that club and Jose is the man to do it.’
Jose Mourinho, back for another spell at Real Madrid, had a big influence on both Coles
The Coles have a new podcast and have also worked together as TV pundits
Ashley became a manager for the first time in March of this year, taking over Serie B side Cesena. It was a long time coming after seven years of developing as a coach, which included assisting Lee Carsley with England’s Under 21s, winning the European Championship in 2023 and 2025. He has also worked with the first teams of Chelsea and Everton, among others.
Italy has a fondness for defensive, countering, direct football. Ashley had other ideas which would inevitably take time to implement at the risk of the odd bad result.
‘People are always quick to say, “They can’t do it”, and it’s like, “Well, have you ever seen them do it?” Ashley says. ‘How do you know if they can do it or not? It’s very easy to say they can’t do it because they’ve played for five years with a low block, long balls, direct football.
‘If it doesn’t work, OK, we will adapt, but let’s see if you can do it. You’re in there for a reason. When you come in after a manager has been sacked, you can’t do the same work that he did and think you will get different results. Change something – the style, the mentality, the training, let it build over time. I’ve enjoyed it. I’ve learned from those experiences. I’m ready for the next challenge.’
Cesena finished 11th out of the 20 teams in Serie B, and Ashley’s contract with the Italian club expires at the end of this month. It was only a short-term agreement which was signed when he arrived in March, and unless something changes between now and then, he will be a manager available for hire as of July 1.
‘I felt I needed to give it a go myself after the body of work I had done on the grass, leading meetings, organising sessions,’ Ashley says of management. ‘I loved it, enjoyed it, learned a lot from it, and I’m ready to go again.
‘I need to make sure I’m given the chance to win. Because I know exactly what’s going to happen. I’m already there in the firing line of, “Oh, he’s not good enough, he can’t do it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah”. I need to choose wisely my next move where I’m going to get people that support me and challenge me and understand you need not a project but some sort of time period where results might not go your way but we’re clear on the way forward. I want a place where I can feel free to work and graft and improve the players.’
Joe is involved in coaching himself – in a voluntary role with Brentford, for example – and is highly supportive of his friend. ‘Ash is absolutely brilliant,’ Joe says. ‘I’ve never seen someone with as much dedication and devotion to his craft. One thing from watching Ash is, when the time comes for me to do it, that’s the level of intensity you’ve got to put into it.
‘Ash’s CV just as a coach is phenomenal, forget the player. There should be Championship clubs queueing up, even Premier League clubs. To build a team around him, a support network of people. What he’s got, and when he walks into the dressing room, is unquantifiable.
‘I can’t for the life of me think why he had to go out to Italy to get the experience. In this country, we’re terrible at supporting and giving opportunities and putting support networks around young coaches. He’ll be embarrassed that I’m saying this, but if there is a decent club out there that’s serious, they should be falling over fighting each other for someone like Ash. Football baffles me.’
